Uma's monkey's birdseed recipe:
2 parts birdseed** to 1 part water
Pressure cook for 60-90 minutes @ 15psi
Allow to cool completely (overnight) before removeing from
the p'cooker
Use it :)
**preferably the type of seed without birdcoat, and
preferably predominantly a millet and milo mix.
Note-For pint jars 3/4 cup birdseed to 3/8 cup of water is
near perfection. Carefull measurement increases
consistancy of results...the cheap plastic multisize kitchen
measuring devices work
great.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Another Birdseed Recipe :
Being that I have finally got my birdseed recipe working to
my liking I thought I would let you guys know how I was doing
it. It took me 4-5 tries to get the water ratio etc. right,
but I think it was worth it. It's probably worth saying that
this isn't the only way to do birdseed and everyone has their
own little "tricks" etc. they use, this is merely what has
worked for me.
#1) Get some wide-mouth 1 pint jars. I would
advise against using 1/2 pints with birdseed because they hold
very little. Poke at least 1 hole in the lid before using, for
inoculation purposes.
#2) Get your birdseed, I have used
Audubon Park birdseed and Peningtons (w/ "Bird Kote"
supplement on the seed). It helped to wash and rinse the "bird
Kote" off of the Peningtons or it would collect at the bottom
of the jar and glue all the seed together, making it
impossible for the mycelium to colonize fully. For this
reason, I would use birdseed with no chemicals, supplements
etc. added.
#3) Measure out 2/3 cup birdseed into each jar
you plan on doing and add enough water to cover the birdseed
totally + ~1" over the seed. Let the seed soak overnight,
shaking every once in a while. Drain the water in the morning
and wipe the top 1" or so of the jar clean with a paper towel
or similar.
#4) Just before putting in the pressure cooker
add another 5-10 cc's of water (I'm not sure exactly how much
I use, but with the seed in the jar it goes about 1/2"-3/4"
deep in the jar). The seed should have enough water in it from
the soaking to grow mycelium, the extra water is to steam the
seed for sterilization. Cover lids with foil.
#5) Pressure
cook @ 15 psi for ~1 hr. Maybe a little more to be
safe.
#6) Let jars cool w/ foil still on lids, I usually do
it in the freezer with no problems, but letting them cool by
themselves is probably safer. I always put tape over the holes
in the lid after they cool, if you do it when they are hot, it
will create a vaccuum and when you open the tape to inoculate
the jar will suck in a bunch of possibly contaminated air.
Note: the birdseed will not fill the jar totally, this is good
because the jars can be shook to mix the mycelium throughout
the whole jar.
#7) Inoculate when jars are cool to the
touch(1 cc. solution is all I use). You can use the oven tek
if yer extra paranoid about contams. After inoculating I
usually shake the seed to disperse the spores/mycelium
throughout the seed.
#8) I usually see growth in ~3 days.
When you see the jars are growing well, you shake them gently
again, don't worry, the mycelium will recover.
#9) Shake
jars every 5-7 days until colonized. Depending on strain this
should take from 2-4 weeks.
#10) When colonized break
birdseed up and cover with yer fave casing.
Author
unknown
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
The Shroomery Bulletin Board
Mushroom
Cultivation
How do I grow with Birdseed
Author Topic: How do I grow with
Birdseed
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total
posts: 1193)
posted August 17, 1998 08:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
keep reading and seeing pictures of the sucess of birdseed. I
don't know why I never heard of this until about a week ago,
but now I'm very curious. So can I please get some feedback
from sucessfull growers.
1) What kind of birdseed is used.
I seen like 6 different kinds at Home Depot.
2) How is it
used in the substrate using the PF jar technique. Does the
seed substitute the vermiculite, or the brown rice, or both.
3) Is it better to make the birdseed with rye grain rather
then rice powder
4) what is the mix ration of birdseed rice/rye and water.
5) does the birdseed need to be sterilized in the microwave
first, and if so how long.
6) Anyone tried using birdseed and rye or grass seed? I
heard of someone using the grass and birdseed to grow semi's.
7) Does the birdseed have to be sterilzed in a pressure
cooker such as rye grain or can a boiling pot of water be used
like with rice.
Please, give some detailed instruction on this. I haven't
found anything on this other then mentions of using it here
and there.
Thanks in advance my fellow shroomers.
Chancellor
Senior Member
(Total posts:
64)
posted August 18, 1998 05:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These
are good questions. Workman probably knows the answers, he
uses this method. Workman?
Workman
Senior Member
(Total posts:
486)
posted August 19, 1998 11:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow,
lots of questions. Instead of answering them one by one, I
will just tell you what I do. Hopefully that will cover most
of them.
When I use birdseed, I am just following normal
spawn making techniques used for rye (except the proportions
of grain to water is different).
I add 250 ml of birdseed and 130 ml of water to a quart
jar. I use a 250ml baby bottle as a graduated cylinder for
measuring the seed. I cover with a lid that has a small hole
in it stuffed tightly with polyester fiber pillow stuffing
material and finally capped with a piece of foil. Sterilize in
a pressure cooker for 1 hour at 15 PSI. Let cool overnight in
the cooker. I then generally transfer agar wedges into the
jar, but spore syringes can easily be used by injecting
through the polyester fiber. Shake periodically to distribute
the mycelium and faciltate air exchange. If you are more
comfortable with fruiting PF style cakes then after the quarts
are fully colonized, repack the colonized seed into halfpints.
Add a lid and wait for about 4 days or until the mycelium has
recovered and the new cake is solid. Remove cake and fruit
normally. Actually, any container can be used to make a cake,
but I've found that overly large cakes tend to dry and not
fruit in the middle. More smaller cakes may be better than one
monster cake.
As far as the type of seed, I use whatever is cheapest at
the time. Its always mostly millet with a few sunflower seeds
and some larger reddish seeds that I believe are milo. Its all
good.
I have a report of someone who used this technique but
couldn't get their pressure cooker to work at the last minute.
They boiled the jars for 1 hr 15 minutes and had good success.
Seems risky to me, and water absorbtion may not be as good.
Ok, one more tip. If your are attempting to inject through
the polyester fiber mentioned above and you stuffed it in
correctly, you won't be able to puncture it through the
middle. What you need to do is slide the needle down the side
of the drilled hole between the fiber and the side of the
hole. It will make sense when you have one in front of you.
Alright, this is the last one. After the seed has come out
of the pressure cooker, it may not look like you expected. The
top will look rather dry and the bottom will have burst grains
and look gummy. You need to shake the grains apart and mix
them. This can be hard at first, but keep working at it. If
even after slamming it into your leg or an old tire it still
won't break apart, use a little less water next time.
Otherwise don't worry about it.
apost
unregistered posted August 19, 1998
03:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
also have one little hint which works also for rye and
"normal" PF cakes:
Use boiling water for your jar and also
fill the pressure cooker with it, then you can wait until the
pressure is high and need only 25 minutes for
autoclaving!!
It has always worked for me, no
contamination...
Later,
Art.
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts:
1193)
posted August 19, 1998 04:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks
for taking the time to post that info. Unfortunatly, I never
bought a pressure cooker and haven't experimented with rye
yet. So I think I'm going to experiment with a
birdseed/rice/water and birdseed/rice/vermiculite/water using
the PF method.
After reading your post
Workman, the
part about birdseed I'm confused about is weather its suppose
to act as a nutriant or water retainer such as vermiculite.
Your using rye and birdseed, both being nutriants then. I
guess the birdseed must retain a lot of water.
I let
everyone know how my experiments go.
Ambrose
Senior Member
(Total posts:
67)
posted August 21, 1998 07:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
If
you are going to try birdseed in PF style cakes, some changes
will need to be made. As Workman mentioned, moisture
absorbtion and contamination might be a problem. The first
thing I would do is bring the moisture content up before
sterilization. You can accomplish this in one of two
ways:
1.measure out the seed and place into a medium-large
pot. Add enough water so the grain is covered by 1 inch.
Slowly bring the water to a boil and steep the grain for 30-45
minutes or until it has achieved the correct moisture
content.
2. This method was suggested by Heiki. Steam the
birdseed in an electric rice steamer. He reported excellent
results with this method, so if you have one of these gadgets,
it is worth a try.
Once the moisture content is correct,
you can load the birdseed into jars and sterilize. But, I
think you would have better results if you added a little bit
of pre-moistened vermiculite to the seed. This will help keep
the substrate loose so the steam can penetrate better.
Finally, and maybe the best, is to simply grind the
birdseed into a course powder and follow the pf recipe except
substitute the seed for the rice. Or, if you want to
experiment try a mixture of different flours. If you use this
method, you will have better results with steam
sterilization.
Good Luck!
-ambrose-
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts:
1193)
posted August 22, 1998 03:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
really liked the idea of grinding the birdseed like rice for
the PF method, great idea. So from what I'm gathering, the
birdseed is not mixed with rice. Sounds to me like everyone is
growing with the birdseed by itself, not mixed with rice. Is
the steaming and/or boiling to loosen the hard shells of the
birdseed so water can penetrate it?
I would sure appreciate
some info from anyone that has growin using birdseed and what
methods they use. Is the yields really higher with BS then
with rice?
Ambrose, you also mentioned the BS is more open
to contaminants?
Thanks for the input
MoJoNiXoN
unregistered posted August 22,
1998 08:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is
it wise to use birdseed with Panaeolus Cyanescens?
Ambrose
Senior Member
(Total posts:
67)
posted August 22, 1998 11:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
Ryche:
For birdseed, I use the method workman posted--add the
birdseed plus water to quart jars and sterilize in a pressure
cooker. When you do this, the steam is under pressure so the
grains absorb all the water. If you were to do the same and
simply steam it in a big pot, the water would not be
effectively absorbed (plus I am not sure if the unground seed
would be sterilized enough). Basically what you'd end up with
is alot of waterlogged seeds on the bottom and dry as a bone
on top. Sooo..., my suggest of first steeping the b/seed in
near boiling water (drain it very well when the proper
moisture has been reached) OR steaming it in a rice cooker was
to make sure the seeds had the proper moisture content. Then,
by mixing in a little premoistend vermiculite (allows the
steam to pentrate better) and finally loading the mix into 1/2
pint jars I think you might have success with steaming it in a
pot. Sorry about the lack of clarity in my first post.
But.....
I really think you would have the best results
if you first ground the seed into a flour and then followed
the PF tek recipe. You could also experiment a little with the
recipe. I once did an experiment using ground rice/ground
millet/ vermiculite. I was very pleased with the results. I
was also thinking that maybe a good substrate for Pan cyan
would be: ground birdseed/finely shredded straw (you may have
to soak this first overnight and then drain really well in
order to get good moisture)/vermiculite. This might yeild a
good fruiting formula once it has been cased.
MOJO: Yes, birdseed is an excellent spawn medium for pan,
but I am not sure if they will fruit on it. Maybe if you case
it.
-ambrose-
Mulch
Senior Member
(Total posts:
55)
posted August 23, 1998 01:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Observation:
Using ground birdseed and vermiculite in pint jars allows you
to shake it as if it were whole seed, whereas BR
flour/vermiculite mix just clumps.
So far... may be a
different story when it really starts colonizing tho.
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts:
1193)
posted August 24, 1998 05:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well
I tried about 4 different variations with BS. I tried steaming
the sead, then just adding with water to jars. Steamed seed
with brown rice flour, ground BS with verm, ground BS with
rice flour and verm. I'll post my results in a few weeks and
let you all know how it goes.
Ryche Hawk
Senior
Member
(Total posts: 1193)
posted September 06,
1998 11:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPdate
on using Birdseed.
My first go around was a failure, but
that was probally because instead of injecting through the
holes that had rust on them, I pulled the lids aside and
injected down the side of the jar. Nothing grew, not even with
my friends PF syringes I was doing for him.
Very
disappointing after all that hard work.
Second attempt, so
far looks good. I now have a pressure cooker as well. I made
several different mixtures. 2:1 vermiculite/BS 1:1 verm/BS and
1:1:2 BS/rice flour/verm . I seeped the BS in at a low low
boil for about an hour. Them made my substrates, then pressure
cooked for about 45 minutes. The only problem here is most of
the birdseed has exploded inside. I read in TMC that you don't
want your rye grain to do this because of higher risk of
contams, I wonder if this applies to BS as well. As far as
mixing my substrate, I do everything to the point of
saturation, I never use measuring cups, I mix my substrate to
where it looks like all the water has been absorbed except
maybe a small amount on the bottom of bowl. If it looks over
saturated I just hold it over sink and squeeze some out until
it looks good. I also presoaked the vermiculite this time. I
also pressure cooked most of my jars with tape off the holes
then put the tape on after they came out to cool. After
cooling I injected with the B+ strain, so far after only 2
days most of the jars are showing sign of mycelium growth.
Especially the ones with a 2:1 mixture. Also the ones with a
2:1 verm/rice mixture look great. Well, thats the latest
update, I'll let everyone know how this turns out, and
hopefully be trading some B+ prints later down the road to
those seeking this beauty.
-peace-
psth
Senior Member
(Total posts:
34)
posted September 07, 1998 09:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've
been wondering while reading this with interest if it might be
possible to autoclave the birdseed 2x. The 1st would get the
seed saturated with water (sterilized in any suitable
container). This saturated birdseed could be put in the 1/2
pint jars. The jars could be autoclaved again.
Thank you.
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts:
1193)
posted September 07, 1998 10:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
think they might just explode with that much pressure on them.
Not sure though cause I haven't tried it. I will say this. I
tried using the birdseed after being seeped for 1/2 hour, then
pressure cooked for an hour. Used the BS with water just like
the rye grain recipe, and it came out a big clumpy mess. I
didn't even bother to inject it it was so bad. Although I may
have used to much water. But, when mixed 2:1 BS to Verm, it
came out very nice and looking good. I did not add any water,
just presoaked the verm and seeped the BS as above.I think
this is the best looking way to go so far. Still to early to
tell.
psth
Senior Member
(Total posts:
34)
posted September 07, 1998 05:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks
again Ryche Hawk. Is the 2:1 mixture with pulverized (powdered
birdseed)? Would you say that using pulverized or powdered
birdseed is the way to go? If you use this powdered birdseed
in the PF method, would you say that the brown-rice is out in
that the birdseed would give the best yield?
Thanks much!
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts:
1193)
posted September 08, 1998 02:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To
early to tell if the BS is better then rice. I'm only trying
BS after seeing those pictures of the B+ that workman posted,
and I'm using the B+. I did not flour the BS, just seeped it
for 1/2 hour and left it whole.
DEMONIK
unregistered posted September 09,
1998 06:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The
other day I was in a local grocery store & I noticed
something interesting.
I saw some bags on the cereal isle
that cotained the following:
* All of these where
organically grown with no additives or perservatives... i.e.
no fungusides.
Puffed Millet; the very small seeds in bird seed.
Puffed Kamut; a type of wheat popular in the Medaterainean
region.This looked like sugar smacks with out the sugar.
Puffed Rice; Rice that has been Puffed.
Puffed Rye; Rye that has been Puffed.
I think that the Puffed Millet would make an excellent
substrate as it was very soft & light. Like the way
perlite is only lighter.I believe it would absorb water &
Mycelium could penetrate it very easily. plus this stuff was
cheap like Ū a Bag. Just a thought. I plan to try some of
these out next time around, but first I have be sucesfull with
this batch !!!!
Spore Monkey
Senior Member
(Total posts:
189)
posted September 10, 1998 06:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My
friend is still waiting to fruit his first try with bird seed
but here's the report so far:
He used finch food because it
1) lacks whole sunflower seeds (just has sunflower chips in
it) and 2) has a greater variety of small seeds than any of
the wild bird foods, it is however more expensive (if you
count 7lbs for Ŭ as expensive). He also used rye berries,
oyster shell, and malt extract powder. The basic ratio was
taken from Herben's post on birdseed & rye, the rest is
from his previous experimentation.
The recipe was 2 cups bird seed, 1 cup rye, 1/4 cup oyster
shell, and 1/4 cup malt extract powder. The mixture was
steeped on a low boil for 45 minutes in an excess of water. It
was then drained using a mesh collander and packed into wide
mouth 1/2 pints, topping with vermiculite as usual. The seed
cakes were autoclaved for 45 minutes at 15 psi, cooled, and
innoculuted with a spore syringe.
The results: the best looking of anything he's tried so far
(he's tried LGB rice/rye (2:1) flour & vermiculite in the
MMGG proportions both with and without malt enrichment and
straight rye berries). The spores generated as quickly as they
do with cakes vs. the longer time he got when using straight
rye - his theory is that the variety of micro-environments
present due to all the seed types facilitate greater
germination. Colonisation is as fast or faster as seen with
the f/v cakes - he expects they will be at or near 100% by 14
days, there have been straight rye cakes that took in excess
of 28 days to complete under his conditions.
We'll have to wait for the fruiting report for final
conclusions, but everything so far indicates that it is as
idiot proof and fast as the f/v cakes. The millet and other
small seeds act as the flour did, the rye becomes like the
vermiculite, but it's ALL nutrient! Hope he shares the wealth
:^)
splatterpuss
unregistered posted September
27, 1998 03:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryche,
I have a homestead kit that instructs to use BS. The correct
moisture is very important. I had a pietry. full of inoc. seed
that was inactive, so I sprayed it directy while lifting the
lid slightly. Soon after, it collonised. Lucky I guess. My
biggest problems have been temp. Homestead instructs not over
80*.And my BS has yellowed at 80* and regrown white at 75* or
less. I have read other posts that insist 80*-85* is best.
Have you or anyone else incountered this? Is it the bird seed,
just me or contam.? any input. Thanks!
Ryche
Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts: 1193)
posted
September 27, 1998 08:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well
I did notice a lot of contams when using wild bird seed. I've
since switched to Finch seed at Spore Monekeys suggestion and
am very happy with the results. I've also added flax seed meal
to this for extra nutriants at 9ers suggestion, very happy
with this also. The jars I'm seeing this yellow mycelium are
in the ones where I used wheat grain, although I did not
colonized with mycelium agar, just inject spores solution. I
did notice this yellow mycelium with the wild bird seed, but
lost most of those to contams anyway. Everything growing from
the finch seed is looking fanfuckingtastic, I'm also using a
differetn strain, trying an austrailian cubensis for
this.
Overall, i've found the finch seed much easier to
work with and haven't lost one jar to contams and its been 5
days and the jars are 50-60% colonized already. I steep the
finch seed at a low boil for 45-60 minutes first also. Then
they need almost no water added after this.
mac
unregistered posted September 27, 1998
08:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
like the finch seed too, and I found one that included flax
seed. I also added some cold pressed flax seed oil as well as
some light dry malt extract to the seeds, and the colonization
on those is amazing as well. I also steeped them at a low boil
with excess water until all of the (mineral) water was
absorbed (40 or so min.) prior to putting them in verm. sealed
jars to be pressure cooked for 30 min. I am also trying out
brown rice (ala 9er) and brown rice/bird seed mixes (70% BS
30% BR), brown rice/flax seed oil and brown rice/malt extract
combinations.
Has anyone else used malt extract in their
mixes? if so.. what are the results?
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts:
1193)
posted September 28, 1998 01:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
haven't tried the malt extract yet. I have tried all the above
experiment you mentioned, most of which I did not use
vermiculite, they didn't need it. And there doing great. I'm
very impressed with the finch seed and flax seed meal at this
point.
I too used mineral water this time.
[This message has been edited by Ryche Hawk (edited
09-28-98).]
Spore Monkey
Senior Member
(Total posts:
189)
posted September 28, 1998 10:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My
friend uses malt extract all the time. He adds about 1/4 cup
to the water that he boils the birdseed in. Not actually
positive that it makes a big difference but it doesn't
hurt.
When he started growing he was trying to get the
liquid mycelial culture thing to work and wound up with
bacterial soup along with the mycelia which destroyed several
jars of whole grain rye before he figured out what was going
on. He gave up on that little venture since spores work very
reliably without the risks but he had a good supply of malt
left so the supplementation began.
The only time he gathered data to compare he saw about a
60% increase in yield comparing LGB Rice/Rye (2:1)
flour/vermiculite cakes vs. the same cake recipe plus malt
enrichment. That was enough to convince him to add it to
everything. Keep in mind though that the only time he didn't
use malt was in the very beginning of his growing days so a
good deal of that increase may be simply because of better
technique. Also, when doing the f/v cakes vs. whole grain the
benefits are probably more dramatic since there's so much less
nutrient in a PF recipe cake.
One of these days he intends to repeat the experiment with
his much perfected growing skills to see if there's still a
big difference. Of course he'll have to wrap up all of his
other ten thousand experiments first
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts:
1193)
posted September 29, 1998 07:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yah,
I know the feeling, my neighbors dog friend of a friend, has
about 10 to 12 different experiments going on to..
He
hardly even eats the mushrooms anymore, just loves growing
them....
such an addicting hobby
splatterpuss
unregistered posted September
29, 1998 07:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks
for the reply about yellowing micili. on the seed. I also had
a strange incidence of birbseed sprouting. I boiled it in jars
for 45min., mass injection, its still colonising. Some spouts
come through the inoc. hole through the verm. even. Can it
still be used if they fully colin.? What does bird seed grow
into any way?
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total
posts: 1193)
posted September 30, 1998 11:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i
don't know, I seen rice sprouting once, but this was from
letting it sit in the tupperware for few days. Let them grow,
I'm curious what they'll sprout into as well.
Spore
Monkey
Senior Member
(Total posts: 189)
posted
October 03, 1998 04:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryche
Hawk:
I just saw a post from you over in a.d.m. where you
posted a birdseed formula of 60% finch seed, 20% rice flour,
and 20% flax meal. How are you working with the grain and the
flour? I would assume that you're pre-cooking the grain
portion and then mixing with the flour before loading the
jars?
I'm just curious why you're going with ground rice. My
friend's next experiment with bird seed is to compare the
results he's getting right this minute with the birdseed/rye
recipe mentioned in an earlier post with birdseed/brown rice
and also just birdseed. The rye, even in the birdseed mixture
still leads to some minor stalls sometimes so he is going on
the theory that whole grain brown rice probably will work just
as well and avoid the stalling tendency of rye. By the end of
the year I'd like to be able to post his results with the
various grain substrates he's tried vs. his original results
with flour/vermiculite cakes.
And one more question: you're using 9er's suggestion of
flax seed meal which I assume you got from a health food
store. What kind of supplementation is this supposed to
provide over the finch seed and rice? My friend's addition of
malt extract crams a bunch of sugars and other carbs into the
same physical volume of substrate, what advantages do you
think the flax seed meal has, and was whole flax seed
available as well?
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts:
1193)
posted October 03, 1998 07:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heya
Spore Monkey.
I went back and read over all my notes from
both times I used the above mixes.
I did a lot of
experiments, including finch seed/rice/wheat grain and
FS/wheat grain flax etc....
That post on the NG was
probably off. I was drinking quite a few corona's that night
and didn't take the time to read my notes, I"ll go back and
edit it.
Here is what I use. I take a tablespoon, and scoop
out big scoops of all the ingrediants. Any of you math wizzes
want to put this into percentage for me, just don't feel like
twisting my brain that much right now. thanks.
20 tbl
spoons Finch Seed
7 tbl spoons rice powder
4 tbl spoons
flax seed meal
10 tbl vermiculite
Mineral water
also
the same as above, but doubled the flax seed meal. Also the
same as above but substituted the rice for wheat grain.
All are showing tremeandous results. All jars have been
fully colonized now, and its only been 10 days. even the pint
jars are 95% colonized. I'll be casing them probally around
day 14. They all look so healthy, not one jar lost to contams.
I'm very excited about these batches.
As for grain prep, I
steeped the Finch seed in mineral water for 45 minutes, same
with the wheat grain. Then in a bowl, mixed in my dry rice
powder and flax seed meal, verm, mixed real well, then added
just a little mineral water at a time till I found the right
moisture I was looking for. Sorry, no exact measurement. As
for nutriants, the label shows it being packed with all sort
of nutriants, sorry I"m not in the kithchen right now. I got
the flax seed meal at a health food store. Its only Ū for a
bag. I'm sure the agar is good as well, but I would rather
save that for agar plates. Maybe I"ll try it sometime. Give
this mix a try spore monkey, I"m sure you will be very pleased
as well.
[This message has been edited by Ryche Hawk (edited
10-03-98).]
[This message has been edited by Ryche Hawk (edited
10-04-98).]
Mulch
Senior Member
(Total posts:
55)
posted October 04, 1998 12:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm
thinking that would look pretty good with soy flour instead of
rice flour, and malt instead of flax seed meal. Of course,
that's just because it's what i have lying around right now.
Thanks fr the ideas Ryche!
Spore Monkey
Senior
Member
(Total posts: 189)
posted October 04, 1998
10:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:
The following post was intended to incorporate some really
nice HTML tables which would have made the presentation rather
slick. However, it turns out that this board doesn't support
tables So, I apologise for the awkwardness that the info
is presented in, but for those interested in this kind of
stuff (and particularly for those without a copy of Stamets'
The Mushroom Cultivator) it's rather useful, so bear with
me.
I could have answered my own questions regarding flax
seed just by going to the bible of spore monkey's everywhere,
the mighty TMC. Having entirely too much time on my hands this
weekend, I cracked my books, put on my thinking cap, got
together with my friend, and came up with the following:
Millet: Prot 11.9, Fat 3.4, Fiber 8.1, Carbs 63.7, Minerals
3.3, Ca 0.05, P 0.30, N 1.90, K 0.43
Rice, Brown: Prot 9.1,
Fat 2.0, Fiber 1.1, Carbs 74.5, Minerals 1.1, Ca 0.04, P 0.25,
N 1.46, K ----
Rye: Prot 12.6, Fat 1.7, Fiber 2.4, Carbs
70.9, Minerals 1.9, Ca 0.10, P 0.33, N 2.02, K 0.47
Wheat,
mean: Prot 13.2, Fat 1.9, Fiber 2.6, Carbs 69.9, Minerals 1.9,
Ca 0.04, P 0.39, N 2.11, K 0.42
Flax seed: Prot 24.0, Fat 35.9, Fiber 6.3, Carbs 24.0,
Minerals 3.6, Ca 0.26, P 0.55, N 3.84, K 0.59
Malt: Prot
14.3, Fat 1.6, Fiber 1.8, Carbs 70.6, Minerals 2.3, Ca 0.08, P
0.47, N 2.29, K ----
Soy flour: Prot 47.9, Fat 6.7, Fiber
2.4, Carbs 29.9, Minerals 6.0, Ca ----, P ----, N 7.66, K
----
Sunflower, shelled: Prot 27.7, Fat 41.4, Fiber 6.3,
Carbs 16.3, Minerals 3.8, Ca 0.20, P 0.96, N 4.43, K 0.92
This shows the nutritional content (by percent) of the most
commonly used ingredients by cubensis cultivators here on the
Shroomery (ignoring straw based cultivation, I'm concentrating
on PF style jar methods), as well as some of the supplements
being tossed around as suggestions.
What immediately was obvious was that three grains that
we've been talking about as a substrate base: rye, millet, and
wheat are nearly equivalent nutritionally speaking. Given
that, it comes down to what the mushroom prefers, and my
friend's results are definitely in favor of millet vs. rye or
wheat (he hasn't actually tried wheat, but, in light of what
we learned today, there seems little reason to do so since
wheat and rye grains are so similar in size, shape, and
texture). My theory is that the higher fibre and fat content
combined with the smaller grain size of millet is what gives
it its advantage in growth characteristics.
The second thing is that brown rice, while obviously
adequate, is not nearly as good as any of the other three
substrate bases; it is lower in every category of nutrition
except plain carbohydrates; thanks PF.
These findings show that his current experiments are almost
certainly pointless since there isn't going to be any
significant difference between rye and millet based cakes in
terms of yield, and that his next planned experiment of
birdseed/rice vs. plain birdseed would not have proven useful
either. A little book research has saved significant time in
the lab.
The next thing that jumped out at me was the similarity
between the flax seed (which 9er advocates and Ryche Hawk has
been singing the praises of in the last few days) and
sunflower seeds w/out shells which are an ingredient of the
Pennington finch seed my friend has been getting such good
results with. Both are high protein, high fat, high fiber,
high calcium, high phosporous, high nitrogen, and high
potassium, in other words, fantastic supplements to the grain
substrate base.
Malt, which my friend has been using in all of his mixes,
is a good source of protein, carbohydrate, phosphorous and
nitrogen. Because it is used in solution form in place of
plain water and therefore takes up no physical volume, it also
would appear to be a worthy supplement.
Soy flour, which Mulch was considering using, does not
appear to have anything to add qualitatively: it's very high
in protein and nitrogen which can promote growth but has no
measurable phosphorous, this is bad. Psilocybin is a phosphate
containing molecule which is also very costly to synthesise
(using lots of ATP in the process), you don't want phosphorous
to ever be a limiting factor or you could wind up with lots of
weak mushrooms - if phosphorous is a limiting factor what you
get is a shift in the psilocin/psilocybin ratio to more
psilocin and less psilocybin, which is not what we're after
here.
*****
Which brings me to the hypothesising part of this post.
Working with a base of finch seed (Pennington Brand Premium
Finch Food) and making the following two assumptions: that
canary grass seed is roughly equivalent to millet in
nutritional content, and that the thistle seed is an
insignificant ingredient, we begin with the following
nutritional content (straight millet is also given which would
work fine as an alternative):
Finch seed: Prot 12.7, Fat 6.7, Fiber 7.5, Carbs 55.8,
Minerals 3.2, Ca 0.06, P 0.34, N 2.03, K 0.45
Millet: Prot
11.9, Fat 3.4, Fiber 8.1, Carbs 63.7, Minerals 3.3, Ca 0.05, P
0.30, N 1.90, K 0.43
Then, going with Paul Stamets' idea that rye can do
anything (and often does) as a reference substrate, I inferred
that what millet/finch seed is lacking is calcium, and I
figured it never hurts to up the phosphorous content a little
when you're trying to make psilocybin. What I believe we want
to do is up the calcium content to rye's 0.1% as a target and,
while we're at it, push the phosphorous content up to about
0.37% or so.
A trip to the health food store yielded both whole flax
seed and raw sunflower seed which was weighed per volume,
plugged into some equations, futzed about with for some time,
and yielded the following recipe and nutritional spread:
This makes 8 1/2 pint cakes or 4 1 pint cakes with some
left over depending on how you pack them.
2.25 cups finch seed* or millet
0.50 cups flax
seed
0.25 cups raw sunflower seeds
FS + supps: Prot 15.5, Fat 14.5, Fiber 7.1, Carbs 52.2,
Minerals 3.2, Ca 0.10, P 0.41, N 2.48, K 0.50
Millet +
supps: Prot 14.9, Fat 09.2, Fiber 7.6, Carbs 52.9, Minerals
3.3, Ca 0.10, P 0.38, N 2.38, K 0.49
* Use a finch seed which lists millet as the number one
ingredient and contains no whole sunflower seeds. Pennington
Premium Finch Food available at Wal-Mart comes highly
recommended.
*****
And, if this isn't enough nutrients and minerals crammed
into a cake for you, you can use mineral water and/or a 4%
malt extract solution in the recipe. This works out to
approximately 1/4 cup malt extract powder in your water for
each unit recipe above. My guess is that for the above recipe,
cooked on a low boil for 30 minutes under most conditions, you
would need about 5 cups of water which should result in
minimal liquid needing to be drained (and, hence, minimal
nutrient loss). That particular might need some adjustment
after I hear from my friend when he tries it because he's
never worked with flax seed before and we don't know how much
water exactly will be absorbed.
My thanks to 9er and Ryche Hawk for the idea of flax seed,
and to Paul Stamets for the Mushroom Cultivator which has more
idea fuel in it than most of us could ever hope to put to use.
[This message has been edited by Spore Monkey (edited
10-06-98).]
Spore Monkey
Senior Member
(Total posts:
189)
posted October 04, 1998 10:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DOH!
This board's HTML doesn't support tables!!! I'll post a fixed
version of the above as soon as I get a chance.
*****
Data is fixed and an error in soy flour nutrients is
corrected (I had the wrong Ca, P, N, & K amounts listed,
plugged in the data from another row from my table when I was
"fixing" it).
[This message has been edited by Spore Monkey (edited
10-06-98).]
Ryche Hawk
Senior Member
(Total posts:
1193)
posted October 05, 1998 04:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
####,
Spore Monkey, you really did have a lot of time on your hands
..... I seen the raw sunflower seed about a month ago and was
thinkging about giveing it a try in the mix somewhere, just
have'nt been back to get it.
Let me know how yours turns
out. Thanks for the nutrition lesson....
Mulch
Senior Member
(Total posts:
55)
posted October 05, 1998 05:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very
informative. I noticed that some brands of finch seed will
have additives such as calcium carbonate, that might add to
it's desirability. Seeing that finch seed (at least the brand
i have, Kay-Tee) has flax and unshelled sunflower seeds in it
already, it might be for simplicity's sake good as the sole
ingredient. It might even be by itself, as good as it gets.
Not that adding malt would hurt.
One thing i have noticed
however, is that birdseed is much wetter than the rice, making
it hard to estimate the amount of water to put into it. I've
had a lot of miscalculations and would like some advice on
keeping the moisture level somewhere decent.
Plus, when is
there too much phosphorous? if added as an additive to the mix
could it hurt development?
Spore Monkey
Senior Member
(Total posts:
189)
posted October 05, 1998 08:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mulch,
Moisture
in birdseed:
The best method in my opinion for working
with grain of any sort if you're using it in a PF style cake
cultivation method is to pre-cook in an excess of liquid
followed by draining with a wire collander before loading it
into jars, capping with vermiculite, and autoclaving. Straight
birdseed (millet) should only take about 30 minutes cooking on
a low boil to completely cook it and saturate it with water.
My friend was cooking his grain for 45 minutes because of the
rye, which takes longer to completely cook. The removal of rye
from the recipe should also hopefully eliminate the evils of
bacillus endospores.
The catch, of course, is that whatever excess liquid you
drain off is nutrient soup so you want to minimise the amount
of liquid you have to drain. Birdseed tends to absorb a little
more than an equal volume of liquid in my friend's experience.
That's where the 5 cups water comes in --> 3 cups grain
will absorb about 3.5 cups water, you will also lose a good
deal of water to evaporation in the cooking time, so I threw
out 5 cups as a starting point. There will be variation
depending on how high your low boil is, relative humidity,
size saucepan used, elevation, etc., so adjust the starting
volume of liquid according to your particular experience. If
you drain the birdseed, its "wetter" nature has never been a
problem and is also probably a positive factor in its much
quicker colonisation than rye in a grain cake.
Phosphorous:
There is definitely a point beyond
which additional phosphorous will have no beneficial effect,
and there is probably a point that it becomes harmful
(although, I don't have a clue as to where that point is). I
looked to nature as my guide: Hay and straw, depending on
variety, has P contents between 0.2 to 0.3, grain substrates
tend to run between 0.3 to 0.4 (one barley listed at 0.42 as
the maximum I saw). There are no recommended substrate bases
that have higher than this 0.4 level of phosphorous, so that
is what I looked to up the birdseed to with supplementation.
The sunflower and flax are great in that both have high
phosphorous contents and are also supercharged in terms of
available energy - this is why I think they're perfect for
nutritional supplementation of what is already a great base:
millet.
I would not get into supplementing with artificial sources
of phosphorous - it would have to be in a form that the
mushrooms can utilise which would require digging up some
journal articles at the local university library, certainly
not straight phosphorous which would kill the little buggers.
If you use malt and/or mineral water you would probably have
already pushed the amount of available phosphorous containing
compounds beyond what the mushrooms can use without getting
into the nebulous realm of artificial supplements. Also, not
that it necessarily applies here, but with plants, upping some
nutrients beyond a threshold level can inhibit the uptake of
other required nutrients, this would obviously be bad so I
figure it's good to stay within safe realms of concentrations.
Kay-tee and other finch seeds:
In and of themselves,
these are probably ass kicking substrates, but, in case you
haven't noticed from my posts, I'm trying to discover the
"ultimate" substrate. I'm a scientific researcher by trade so
this stuff fascinates me. My friend grows and I do the
thinking, together we both benefit.
[This message has been edited by Spore Monkey (edited
10-05-98).]
Mulch
Senior Member
(Total posts:
55)
posted October 05, 1998 05:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
noticed your goal was more perfection than convenience, I was
just adjusting it more toward my liking, which is a little of
both.
I'm considering using a rice steamer to moisturize
the substrate. Only around ฤ or so where i've been. no wasted
nutrients, sure fire moisturization too. Add in the malt
later...
--------------
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God may have mercy on you. We will not."
-- John McCain